I'm back today with the latest in my Hot Hand series of posts, where I describe and review a hand that actually occurred to me or at my table online, and we will discuss various options and strategies along the way as to how the hand should be played, what my opponent is likely to be holding, and possible plans for extracting chips from my opponent while protecting my own chips at the same time.
The setup is the first half-hour of Byron's latest WPBT tournament, a private $26 buyin HORSE mtt on Full Tilt. We're in the second orbit, and we're playing limit Omaha hi-low 8 or better, commonly called O8. Blinds are 40-80, and I am in the big blind with A34T in my hand, including the Ace being suited in clubs with both my 3♣ and my 4♣. The action is folded around to Dr. Pauly, who limps in for 80 chips. Heather then limps for 40 more chips from the small blind, bringing the action to me. Given my second-nut low starting hand with the A3, plus the A4 in case the 3 gets counterfeited on the board, and given my two cards to a straight flush (34 of clubs) as well as my suited Ace that can make a nut flush, this is definitely a hand that is worth seeing a cheap flop with, so I decide to check my option and see a free flop since I had already put in my 80 chips from the big blind.
The flop comes 55Q, with two clubs on the board. So, things are not looking good for anyone to make a low hand here, which is good and bad. It's bad in that I have an A3, a fairly good low, but won't likely get to make use of it here. But it's good as well for a few reasons. First, I don't have to deal with the possibility of losing the low to someone holding A2, often what ends up taking down most low hands in big O8 pots. Secondly, since I have the nut flush draw, I have a good shot of winning the entire pot with the best high hand. I have to be aware, because there is a pair on the board, but the odds of someone holding one of the two remaining 5s, in addition to one of the other three Queens in the deck, are very low.
Maigrey, an excellent HORSE player in her own right with whom I have final tabled the nightly HORSE mtt on full tilt on more than one occasion, checks this flop, and I check along as well since I am hoping to get a free card to my nut flush draw. Pauly bets out for 40 chips, and Maigrey surprises me with a checkraise to 80. Action is to me.
What's your move here? You've got a bet and a check-raise in front of you, and you are holding nothing more than a nut flush draw on a paired board. Call, Raise or Fold?
Hot Hand #2
Reader Comments
(Page 1)2. I fold here as well for the same reasons that DavidK stated.
Posted at 6:09PM on Nov 28th 2006 by kaellinn18
3. As you have said in previous posts, Omaha is a game of the nuts, and if you don't have the current nuts or a solid draw to it, why throw your money away? On a paired board without much chance of a low, the nuts is quads, followed by a full house, and you don't have a pair in the hole. Looks like a fold, even to a donkey like me.
Posted at 7:04PM on Nov 28th 2006 by Dave Westbay
4. Wait a sec. Heather check/raises on the flop not the turn?
My insta-thought would be she wouldn't be doing that with a monster, she'd wait for the turn.
Still, I'd let it go.
Posted at 7:27PM on Nov 28th 2006 by AlCantHang
5. I can't see any reason to play this pot. What do you want to see on the turn, a duece of clubs?
Posted at 7:57PM on Nov 28th 2006 by Phil Ackley
6. While I understand the rationale for folding here, I don't think you're in too much trouble with respect to the cards as much as being sandwiched, so lets look at the bets from your opponents.
Dr. Pauly limped late then bet when it was checked to him...i.e. his bet seems to be a "feeler." I'd put him on maybe a 5, maybe a queen, maybe 2 clubs. Either way, I doubt he's got both a queen and a 5 so you aren't likely to be drawing dead..yet.
Magriel's check-raise suggests to me that there is a stronger likeli-hood of her having a 5..probably a hand like A35x, A45x. As you said, she's experienced enough to know that a low is less likely now, AND she knows that u know this too...so her raise i believe is an attempt to push out any garbage flush draws and/or better low draws should low cards come on the turn and river.
Therefore your play here is to raise. Having a fairly good handle on Heather's hand at this stage, your most pressing need is to define Dr. Pauly's. Simply calling here makes Pauly's call almost automatic. But he's not likely to call 2 bets cold against 2 experienced O8 players without something. If he's got nothing, he'll release and you'll get to play headsup with magriel and position. If he's got one of the hands u need to worry about (as above), be prepared to fold unless your flush hits on the turn.
Posted at 11:12PM on Nov 28th 2006 by jeciimd
8. Fold.
You don't have the odds to call, you're sandwiched between two different players, and you're not drawing to the nuts.
I agree with Al that Heather can't have a strong hand. At the most, she has a 5 for a set and she's defending it. While Pauly's bet may be a "feeler" bet, I'd rather save chips and try again with a different hand. The blinds are still low and, I'm guessing, you'll still have a lot of play in your stack.
Posted at 7:43AM on Nov 29th 2006 by Pokerwolf
9. I also agree with Al's thoughts. I'm still relatively new to Omaha, but I've been trying to play some of the micro cash games on Stars lately to get a better feel for it. As you always say, Omaha is a game of the nuts. While the idea of a check-raise here is a little suspect, I don't think you have enough of a draw here to continue in the hand.
One of the reasons you played this hand was because of your A-3 lo. Well, now you'd have to catch runner runner to even play for the low, so I think that aspect of your hand has been neutralized. From a hi perspective, outside of your flush draw there really isn't much working for you. You haven't paired anything, no sets, no straight draws, etc. Also, the fact that the board pairs definitely hurts the power of your flush draw if you do hit because then you have the definite possibility of a full house out there somewhere.
I just don't see enough positives about your hand, the flop, or your opponents' actions to continue here.
Posted at 9:59AM on Nov 29th 2006 by Mike Maloney
10. Fold. You may have a nut flush, but the chances of someone pairing up on of their other cards besides the five to make a full house is pretty good. This is Omaha. Fear the boat.
Posted at 10:49AM on Nov 29th 2006 by Beldar
11. OMFG, I have to jump in here.
I was about to read this column, and probably respond with something (I hope) marginally insightful in this comment box. Instead, the !@#$%^ advertisement of the @#$%^ jumping-up-and-down #@$WE%^ woman trying to sell me a car FINALLY got the better of me.
Let me say, that I've been *so @#$%^ annoyed* by this $#%^ advertisement for #@$% months, because it regularly distracts me from reading the content on this lovely site, that in recent weeks I've seriously considered stopping reading this site.
Today I had a rage moment and had to close my browser before I seriously exploded all over my nearby cubicle denizens.
You know the advertisement I mean. It loads on the front page about 30-50% of the time.. 100% of the time, if you're me. It's the young dark haired woman who beckons to you, and then when you IGNORE HER WHICH IS REALLY HARD #@$%#@$%^ @#$% @#$%, she starts jumping up and down and waving her arms at you. Then if you OMFG ACCIDENTLY mouse over the image, it changes into a #$%^& shpeel about buying a car and tries to get you to interact with it.
Oh boy, do I ever want to interact with it. I WANT TO PUT MY FIST THROUGH THE SCREEN.
Phew, I feel a lot better now.
I know this is uber laaaaaaame, but I would pay someone like, fifty bucks to get that $#%^ @#$% ad of this website. I like this site, but it distracts me so much and so often that I just can't stand it anymore. I'm thinking of taping something over my monitor in that spot just so that I can enjoy the content on this site without swearing a blue streak (and getting fired).
RANT OVER. For now.
I'm sorry that I didn't post anything of use to this thread.
Posted at 3:53PM on Nov 29th 2006 by XantheKnight
12. BTW, I was going to add my second choce would be to raise to get it heads-up, praying you are not drawing dead, to make it a bit less likely to run into a full-house if you hit your flush, but I think it's far behind folding. Calling is absolutely the worst option.
13. Okay I'm ready to make a real comment now
Fold.
I've said it before.. I get burned too many times with the second nuts in O8. I hate that you got checkraised here. Your low isn't nut and is quite possibly dead anyway.
If you're a normal person, you've got a decent chance of drawing dead to both halves of the pot.
If you're me, you're definitely drawing dead. No question. Fold. (sounds sarcastic, but it's actually uncanny)
Posted at 2:30PM on Nov 30th 2006 by XantheKnight
14. Fold. I think I would have raised before the flop with a suited A34 though.
Posted at 4:16PM on Nov 30th 2006 by SR
1. Fold. Why bother getting involved? You may be drawing dead for the high, you are drawing to runner-runner low for half (and unless the 2 hits, it's not the nuts either) or you could easily make your flush and have it make someone else's full-house. Pot is relatively small, why call two cold, plus risk getting re-raised again from the initial bettor?
FWIW, I might have bet out on the flop trying to pick the pot up right there.
Posted at 5:24PM on Nov 28th 2006 by DavidK