1. I'll say that luck has something to do with it; however, even on my best day, I would never be as good of a player as the people who qualify for the WSOP each year. So I say it's more skill.

Posted at 2:50PM on Oct 27th 2005 by Beau McClelland

2. There is a part of luck in poker with most things you play or do. What makes poker different is that in the long run if you are a "good" player you will come out ahead of a bad lucky player. It may not be in a day, week or even a month but if you are good you will beat weaker players...

Posted at 3:52PM on Oct 27th 2005 by Jay

3. It is my understanding that California allows poker, along with those weird versions of blackjack and other games, because the house makes its money by taking a rake or a time charge, while all of the money changing hands at the table is between players.

In other words, a game where you play against the house and the house has an advantage (like roulette) isn't legal, but one where players are playing against each other and the house simply rakes the pot (like poker) is acceptable.

Skill doesn't enter into it. In 21st Century Blackjack, for example, the banker player has a slight built-in mathematical edge and he has limited, if any, decision-making capability to allow for a further skill-based edge.

If Great Britain wants to distinguish based on skill, more power to them. At least it's something that can be demonstrated with overwhelming hard evidence and isn't subject to how ignorant people feel about it.

Posted at 4:24PM on Oct 27th 2005 by Vex

4. Beau,

It's ALL LUCK.
And just a sprinkle of skill.

Think about it this way: you're always waiting for the right cards to show. Sitting back, WAITING for the right cards to show up in your hand, and then waiting again to see what the rest of the 5 cards are going to show.

if you play all the time, and I mean play a LOT of games, and all you ever got in the 2 cards in your hand were 7&2 off-suit, and none of those cards EVER showed up in the flop, you could never bet, and could never get in on the rest of the community cards. OK, sure, you may be the best bluffer in the world, but if the other players at the table have better cards than you, they're going to bet big and you probably won't be able to reply.
Conversely, if you contstantly got the highest cards possible all the time, then you would be betting all the time, with all sort of control.

So, unless you get the cards, you won't be playing. Those cards you're waiting on is all luck, since you have no control over how the cards land in your hands.

Now, compare it to something like GOLF, for example, which is ALL SKILL, and a just a sprinkle of luck:
You have to be skilled to hit the ball exactly where you want to hit it, exactly how you want to hit it. Sometimes you may not hit it just so, but a lucky bounce will keep you in play, and a lucky spin of the ball may drop it in the cup.

Posted at 11:04PM on Oct 28th 2005 by AA

5. Two of the pro "skill" comments were from my Mum and me.My mum who this time last year was convinced it was all luck and I was on the road to ruin and who now spends her days playing online cursing the fish when they hit their 2 outers as they didn't have the odds to call!

Posted at 2:41PM on Oct 28th 2005 by Acornman

6. Wil,
I love that you used the "F" word...

"If it weren't for luck, I guess I'd win every one"
– Phil Hellmuth

Posted at 4:47PM on Oct 27th 2005 by Joe_13

7. The simplest argument I can make in favor of poker being a game of skill is simply this: The bluff. You can win pots without luck by making a skillful bluff. Certainly not every pot can be won by bluffing, because you have to be able to tell when a bluff is not the optimal play. But there is no bluffing I'm aware of in any other casino game.

Further, poker is also the casino game with a psychological aspect. You are competing against other people, not against a casino with steadfast rules mandating their behavior, such as a blackjack dealer having to hit a soft 17. There is certainly skill involved in monitoring other players' actions and behavior to determine your optimal action.

By the way, Vex, just to be clear, casino gambling where the house's money is at risk (standard blackjack, roulette, slot machines, etc.) is allowed in California's Indian casinos. Ballot measures to allow slot machines at race tracks were defeated.

Posted at 6:43PM on Oct 27th 2005 by elf

8. flip a coin.. thats luck right? well how about if someone pays you 2 dollars each time it is heads and you pay them 1 dollar if it is tails? now you make money.. how did this situation arrive? apparently you have some skill of convincing people to take bad bets.

in poker you are constantly working to get yourself into such a situation. inexpereinced players dont even realize this and happily take bad beds repeatedly.

Posted at 11:27AM on Oct 28th 2005 by nathan

9. you dont even need bluffs to make it skillfull. playing structured limit poker for low stakes, you basicly cannot bluff. every pot has a showdown. however, i make money at these games because i show down the best hand and i get maximum value out of it

Posted at 11:27AM on Oct 28th 2005 by nathan

10. To me this comment says it all: "Sitting back, WAITING for the right cards to show up in your hand"

That's the difference, the great plays don't sit back and wait for cards. John Juanda can play with anything as can a guy like Gus Hanson.

Now I won't say that luck doesn't matter but skill is more important.

if you are holding say 72o and a flop goes A-5-6 with 3 plays in and you bet 3/4 pot with a skill steal (representing you have As) you are both skillfull and lucky. The luck comes in if nobody actually has the ace. But then the skill also comes in there, because if that guy re-raises it back to you, you have the disipline to lay it down.

One sidebar though for online play are these "turbo" and rebuy tournys. The turbo ones are 80-20 luck, because you can't pick your spots as easily. I was involved in my first rebuy this week at Pokerstars and hated the experience. All I saw were clowns going all-in, so they either double up - double up - double up. Because they had no problem re-buying if the crapped out.

Posted at 12:05AM on Oct 29th 2005 by Guido